Co-editors: Seán Mac Mathúna John Heathcote
Consulting editor: Themistocles Hoetis
Field Correspondent: Allen Hougland
On August 5th, 1995, the consulting editor and co-editor of Flame, Themistocles Hoetis and Seán Mac Mathúna traveled to Paris, France, and interviewed George C. Andrews.
Seán Mac Mathúna: Do you think there's been a hidden hand in Western history?
George C. Andrews: Yes, l do, and l think a lot of history has been manipulated from behind the scenes, and the people (that) are in the centre stage are no more than front men . . . l think its a fascinating field of investigation to find to find out what really happened . . . l think what were taught in history books is accurate, but not all of it is, and its open to question like everything else.
What organisations today would you say were predominant in this conspiracy?
Well, it seems quite clear that it has a lot to do with the CIA, and the Trilateral Commission . . . for example, during the last world war, there were these industrial cartels which interlocked and l think that its these interlocking cartels of multinationals which really govern the world today - they dominate all the different governments, and in the United States, the country is really being run at present by the multinational corporations, by the so-called defense industry.
The Secret Team?
Yes. And The Secret Team is there to ensure it stays that way; and to neutralise - that means kill - by any means possible people who try and alert the population to what is going on. (1)
So what do you think George Bush was talking about when he proclaimed the New World Order? Was it a sign for those who knew that a new time was here?
I think he meant it that way . . . (and) that somewhere along the line the world does need to unite, but it should be in a way that represents all the people of the world, and it should not be in a way that the planet is dominated by a few families: just because they happen to be banking families and to have a lot of money that does not make them a new aristocracy - we do not need a new aristocracy; we need a planetary distribution system that is fair and equitable.
Do you think there's any substance in what people are saying that the United Nations is a possible world government?
Yes, l think that's being set up for now . . . for example, many people in the United States think - and there's evidence to support this - that if they pass gun laws in the US, or if there's major civil disturbances, UN troops would be brought in . . .
Which the far right claim, will be Russian?
Which is an about turn considering the cold war?
Yes, it is.
Do you think this is where the Oklahoma bombing comes in? Where the Militias can be blamed, and the US government can bring in repressive laws, and curtail the constitution, and create the climate for a crackdown?
I think that's a possibility that needs to be considered along with the other possibilities. We really don't know, but there (are) some very contradictory statements particularly made during the period right after the bombing. For example this Rider truck, they didn't start talking about that until several hours later, and before that it was something else, and there was a bomb inside the building.
That was in Paranoia, which showed a seismograph from Oklahoma which indicated there were two explosions not one explosion. Like with the Kennedy assassination, the Oklahoma bombings is full of contradictions in the "official" statements . . .
Yeah, sure, and we just have to keep track of these contradictions, and see where they lead because if they keep accumulating they'll point like an arrow in some direction.
Do you think that in the Oklahoma bombing there was evidence in the building concerning the Waco massacre?
Yes, that might well be part of it, (but) we can't say for sure at this point.
Are they planning a Coup d'état in America?
I think that is what they're trying to arrange, and that's what I'm doing my best to short circuit any way l can, just trying to get the word out any way l can . . .
What is one of the biggest threats to peoples civil liberties that we are seeing developed at the moment?
The danger at the top of my list is the implantable biochip which would put an end to individual liberty and put big brother right inside our heads in ways even worse than what George Orwell described in 1984. Anyone who has been implanted with a biochip is at the mercy of the operator of the computer, the chip is hooked up to. The biochip can be implanted simply by injection. What an elite clique within our government wants to do, is to inject every single citizen of the US - under no matter what pretext - and as quickly as possible. The Clinton health-plan features the so-called smart card which contains a chip similar to a biochip except that it is not yet in your body. However, you would not be able to function in society without carrying your so-called smart card, actually your slave card, on your person. At first it would contain only your health records but then your financial and legal records would be added, and the card would replace cash for transactions. At that point cash would be made illegal. Then since cards can get lost or stolen all card holders would have to line up for replacement of cards by injected biochips. Instead of computers being used to enhance human well being the reverse would have occurred. Humanity as a whole would be enslaved to a tiny elite clique of computer programmers, who would themselves be under the control of the alien group known as the Grays. In this fashion, planet Earth would become a slave colony of the Grays, managed by human overseers. The implantation of biochips into untold thousands of abductees by the Grays may be in preparation, for such a takeover.
What is Project HARP?
Project HARP is the Auroral Research Project which is run mainly by the US Navy in Alaska.
What is currently going on ?
They've been preparing this for a number of years and they just sort of flipped the switch and turned it on - its not operating at full capacity - its been on since January 1st 1995. Basically what they're doing is pumping a lot of microwave energy into the ionosphere, enormous amounts of microwave energy. They give all kinds of reasons why they want to do this and one of the reasons is that they think they can detect underground things with the satellites. There are not only catastrophic weather changes, but they greatly increase the frequency of earthquakes. There is a real danger that it could disturb the orbit of our planet. It seems like a completely irresponsible abuse of military power. Without debate they are pumping all this energy into the ionosphere and already since the beginning of the year we are getting earthquakes almost everyday. One of the aims is to cause total disruption of communications over a very large portion of the earth, disrupt all land based communications, weather modification, altering solar absorption, which can alter the amount of ozone nitrogen in the atmosphere. You could literally kill or make thrive. Not only weather control applications but mind control applications, just over vast areas of the earth, send waves that implant thoughts and stuff like that. All this is going on in complete public ignorance. This HARP programme it seems, is also operated in conjunction with something I talked about in the book, the Ground Warning Emergency Network which it also turns out is a mind control thing. They've got these towers now every 200 miles throughout the US and the reason they built it all was in case there was a Soviet first strike. It was really mind control.
This reminds me very much of the case documented in Lobster of the Verney's in England, who claimed that the microwave attacks on their house were coming from microwave towers nearby . . .
That is perfectly plausible considering what happened at Greenham Common. They were using microwave weaponry against the protesters. That's why street manifestations are now a thing of the past. Its suicidal because they now have the microwave technology. Just one or two policemen with microwave weapons can disperse a crowd in no time.
What happens if one of the policeman turns it on the politicians or the police themselves?
We would seed a crack in the system . . . I think it'll all come down. I think its rotten to the core.
Could a lot of this technology could just backfire ?
Oh sure. Just as carefully contrived plans like Waco - now that is backfiring as more and more people are realising what went on
There appears to be a lot of examples both in England and the US of this technology being used covertly against political dissidents ?
Exactly, especially political dissidents who have no effective way of alerting the media or no powerful connections.
Do you think its possible that the US government used some of this technology in Project HARP to cause the explosion at Chernobyl ?
That could be possible but its also possible that Chernobyl was a case of Russian mismanagement. Russian nuclear factories aren't renowned for their safe construction. Those are just possibilities to be checked out.
Do you think they are altering the weather in certain parts of the world already . . . Have you any idea why, for instance, its really dry in Africa ?
Well just checking out the Meteorological reports for this summer one would quickly see if something was really unusual going on. It hasn't been unusually hot but aside from that I think there were a couple of earthquakes out somewhere east, in Japan there was one in the last few months, somewhere else, Greece in the last few weeks, northern Greece near Salonika.
So in a military sense this could be used against a civilian population in a country that was not liked ?
Yes, and it could be also used to help thrive and prosper, it could be used in either way. The trouble is that since the military has this thing and wants to maintain monopoly at any price, it is all geared in the negative sense - with the US sending out bad vibes to Russia, Russia sending out worse vibes to us - when it could really be a positive exchange. At a certain frequency, life thrives on, at other frequencies, life just shrivels up and goes away. Its proved that you can cause diseases with some frequencies, its like reverse radionics, using Radionic instead of to heal but to send disease.
Do you believe there has been secret US government involvement with the AIDS virus ?
Yes, I definitely think so. There was a doctor called Wolf Szumes,2 who came I think from Bulgaria and was a Communist and this was right in the middle of the Cold War. He was placed in charge of US blood supplies and while he was in charge . . . they ran the Hepatitis B vaccines in the New York gay community. Apparently, almost everyone who received this vaccine got AIDS. This was the first outbreak of the AIDS epidemic, and (it) was distributed by Dr Szumes in the Hepatitis B vaccine. Just as I think that it was distributed in Africa through the World Health Organisation small pox inoculation - anybody trying to get inoculated against small pox got Aids.
What was that you were mentioning earlier when we talked about the depopulation of developing world countries ?
I can't point to the actual minutes but I know there was a Club of Rome decision, probably in the Global Report 2000, that during the 80s, I think it was during Carter's Presidency, one of the things they studied was world conditions, changes towards the year 2000 and one of the main conclusions they drew was that population must be decreased. One of the reasons why the World Bank policies have people so infuriated and rightly so about the World Bank is that when these developing world countries borrow from the World Bank, one of the conditions of the loan is that they decrease their population. Now there is only one way you can decrease the population is to kill people. They are saying, we won't loan you money unless you kill your own people.
There are many interconnected stories here aren't there: UFO's in contact with the US governments, the world coup business with the world bankers seizing power, do you think the case for proving this is getting stronger?
Yes it is, but also the crunch is coming closer, and the evidence is really accumulating more and more but we have less and less time to act on it. So its really a matter of great urgency to do what we can while we can
I noticed that Paranoia strives to bring all these areas together regardless of their stance
One thing I like about Paranoia is they consider themselves a forum for whoever has a conspiracy theory, no matter what it is, can tell it to compare with others. They already publish the most outrageous stuff, but these are people expressing their own ideas and it makes for an open controversy and you get more issues resolved.
There's a programme to show in Britain this month (August 1995) concerning the Rosswell case in New Mexico, could you tell us more about that?
Not having seen the film, all l can say is if it turns out to be authentic: fine - but this could be a set-up - they could be getting everybody all excited about it, then at the last minute, someone will step in with conclusive evidence that its a fraud, and they could use this a technique to disparage the whole Rosswell case, which just wont go away, because the evidence keeps getting stronger and stronger, the people investigate, the more witnesses they find. The Rosswell case does not depend in any way on whether or not this film turns out to be authentic. And even if the film turns out to be a hoax, there is a whole mountain of documentation on the Rosswell case - very strong evidence.
Can you briefly explain what the Rosswell case was?
A UFO crashed in New Mexico in 1947 on the property of this rancher, and l think he informed the Sheriff that there was wreckage on his property and he went out and inspected. He saw tinfoil (from the wreckage) that couldn't even be dented with a sledgehammer and would not burn or anything; also some of it had writing on it which resembled Sanskrit; and it was very light but very strong. This was scattered a couple of miles over his pasture. Then the Army came, and first, they put out an announcement that a flying-saucer had crashed - and then the next day, they said no, it was a weather balloon. And there are many witnesses and more turning up on more or less a regular basis who had something to do with the crash, or who saw or who had something to do with the corpses, or who remembered there was an order for small coffins, l think five small coffins from the local funeral home, on that day. Just a lot of little things like that, but it just adds up, and its very strong. And so the Rosswell case remains untouched, even if this is a strategy to disparage it.
Isn't it the case, as you document in your recent books, that one theme in the UFO story is alleged involvement by government officials in intimidating witnesses to these events?
Yes, it is a theme that surfaces constantly throughout the literature - ever since the late forties when it all started. And l would say that a certain amount of government secrecy would be justified in these matters, but by going to such excesses, we've got to the point that no-one believes what they tell them any more. Its become completely self-defeating. And if they had levelled with people from the start they would have shock, there might have been some panic, the stock market would have dropped, but its nothing near like what's going to happen when finally people realise that for fifty years they've been lied to. And that is when there could be mass panic instead of a population which is able to accept that . . .
Do think that elements of the US government are worried that they don't know the full story?
Of course, it wouldn't surprise me, for example, if people like Timothy Leary, had been sent out to test the waters, to see if anyone would believe it if they tried to tell what was actually going on.
One thing l find interesting authors such as yourselves who've been writing all these years, is that there several examples in history of people having premonitions, subconsciously, especially since the fifties there's been a lot a people writing about science-fiction, UFO's, planetary wars etc. Do you think there's a lot of people who have had this experience who also believe that the times coming - that there will be direct contact (with UFO's)?
Yes I think so, and I think that many of the science fiction writers (saw this), there was a time that the only way you could express this sort of insight was through science fiction otherwise you would be considered mad and locked up without further ado. Science fiction was the only way. Charles Fort found a way around it by presenting all these odd news clippings . . . It was an immensely restrictive society that it wasn't so long ago that you were burnt in the public place for going to the wrong kind of church or something, you know
So, considering the mass of evidence that suggests that ancient civilisations such as the Aztecs and the Egyptians were in contact with the UFO's, considering that the present governments, like the US government are alleged to in contact with them as well, what we are now seeing is another theme running through history - would you not say that the UFO's may have come originally: but that they've never gone ?
Yes I think that they went away for extended periods and there were periods when they came more rarely - it all seems to have gone into a crescendo around 1947 and the crescendo is not yet over with
Some writers have said that isn't it a coincidence that so many UFO's were seen after the war - maybe because they had exploded bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki and developed technology that other races thought: they're up to something - lets have a look. Do you think that the Nazi regime were also in contact with these forces ?
Yes, but I think that there are different planetary groups from different areas of the universe with differing characteristics and motivations and that it us very important to become acquainted with these groups before making alliances with them. One must be very careful about who one makes an alliance with - we thought were the only fish in the ocean and we are not - there are all kinds of life forms out there. There are certain types of ET's who seem to have been interacting with us in one way or another since prehistoric times.
I suppose its just in recent times that certain governments have been passed on the technology for them to use ?
If, what Leary said about the deal made between the US government permitting the mutilations and abductions and underground bases in exchange for technology is true - I think there was undoubtedly a technology exchange, it may not have been as extensive as expected by the government but they certainly got some technology out of it.
You showed me Black Helicopters over America, which showed alleged links between the helicopters and the mutilations of animals - do you think there's a lot of plausibility in that ?
Yes, throughout the animals mutilation period - that period when they were really happening on a major scale, report after report coming in and these from farmers in different parts of the country about black helicopters. The documentation that Jim Keith uses in that book is derived from research by my friend Tom Adams, and I know he is a very careful researcher and he just really wrote down what the people told him . . .
What do you think of Dreamland in the Nevada Desert. Do you think that is a secret UFO site ?
Yeah but I think that so many people know about it now that they may have moved it elsewhere
There buying all the land for 200 miles around . . .
Yeah, I know and not just buying but seizing it - I guess they give the people something, but you know, there really just seizing the land
Is there evidence that links US bases with UFO's?
Well, Gulf breeze is right next to Fort Auckland in Florida there And all those sightings in Taxarkana are right near - l can't remember that name of the fort on the Red River there - there are many examples of intense UFO activity in the vicinity of US military bases
Do you think there is any substance in the suggestion that President Kennedy found out about all this and that is one of the reasons why they decided to get rid of him ?
I think that he may have found out about just some of it and that he had decided to blow the whistle, tell the US people. And that is one of the major reasons. We do know that it happened a few months after he had publicly stated that he would "tear the CIA into a thousand shreds and scatter them to the wind". Alan Dulles (the CIA chief), had this hit team that was trying to kill Castro and hadn't succeeded but they did manage to kill their own president, with help from within . . .
It seems they killed Danny Casalaro, who was investigating how the BCCI scandal and the Iran-Contra scandal were all linked. He called it the Octopus . . .
Yes, I have quite a bit of material on him. I think the Octopus he's describing has a lot to do with what I describe in my books,
Do you know people who have died in disputed circumstances ?
Yes, one thing I do want to mention, and it's something that I'm very concerned about these days. Do you know Carla Turner who has written Into the Fringe and Taken - two very fine books about abductions - Carla is a very good friend and then she wrote a third book Masquerade of Angels, a collaboration with a psychic Ted Rice. In this book, she describes these close encounters and how they have a deceptive angelic camouflage, and underneath there is something predatory. No sooner has she published this book, she is stricken down with cancer that spreads with such rapidity, that at present she is suspended between life and death . . . I think she is the victim of retaliation by predatory entities whose game she exposed
Same old putting radiation on the driving seat of a car?
Yes - they have all sorts of ways they can cause cancer in a person and it wouldn't surprise me - I think it was something deliberately induced because Carla was someone who independently spoke out, very eloquent and very intelligent and I think that she has been deliberately removed from the scene. And if this was the only case, but another two or three years ago (this happened to) another friend named Anne Livingstone, who had just finished an article on electronic harassment . . .
Like what happened at the Women's Peace Camp at Greenham Common in England?
Yes, she had just published that article and publicly challenged the CIA when she comes down with cancer which spreads with such rapidity that the doctors can't figure out how its happening and also died in record time
Have you read The Sirius Mystery by Robert Temple?
Well, I think that the temple is correct, that the Dogon people (in Mali) did have a genuine tradition of ET contact dating back to prehistoric times. This is how they got that very accurate astronomical information, and I think they may also be correct because they also predict the return of these aquatic entities from Sirius. (2)
Do you know possibly when this might happen?
No, I don't know exactly when but I do know when you survey globally these predictions from all these different peoples they also say predict the return of the Nommo (see panel).4
Do you think Eric von Daniken, the author of Chariots of the Gods, was right and he was discredited ?
I think to a large extent right, but to a certain extent he discredited himself by sloppy research and exaggerated claims. For example the thing of the underground tunnels in Ecuador. I met someone who had been in Ecuador at the time, and said that he just got that stuff from people who came to him in his hotel room, he never left his hotel room, you know he talks about going through the jungle, and he mixed real things with bullshit - and when you do that it makes the whole thing suspect. Nevertheless even though he had that weakness, one thing he did come up with (is) a lot of evidence that is for real. Once you start looking there, a lot of the photographic evidence he has got together is valid . . .
The Tibetan's have the return of Shamballah, the Mayan people have their calendar, there is the Dogon myth, and the Christians have Armageddon. There is a theme in all the holy books and ancient prophesies . .
That we are right on the threshold of the transition between major cycles . . . I think that as we come closer to the transition point it will get more intense and that there will be more negativity to deal with. It will probably get more intense in all kinds of ways but there will come that point of transition or breakthrough and then it will go in the other way . . .
Because in the Mayan calendar it indicates that this will be in the year 2012
I'm not sure how many traditions concur on that, but it is one that quite a few traditions concur on. (3)
Do you think at this transitional stage . . . the ET's will play a part in this?
I think so, and so it's very important that among humans, there are those who are able to communicate instead of panicking or falling down on ones knees and praying to them - when all they want to do is communicate. We should develop our own telepathic abilities, because that is the way they communicate
Are there are ET's who have an ancestral link with us, and others ET's which don't? Do you also think the US government are in league with one or both of them ?
I think that they have probably met all-comers, I think that they have made the mistake at some point of making an alliance with the wrong group as far as human well-being in concerned.
Who do you think they are ? Have you had any indication of where the ET's originate from?
We can only repeat what they have told us - Gray's from Zater Reticulae. (4) That doesn't necessarily mean that is where they are from.
Are you acquainted with that area, is it listed as part of a galaxy?
Its not a galaxy, its a star system in the astronomical catalogue, it is among the systems where life is considered possible because it is not old enough to have developed life independently however they could have arrived there from elsewhere.
In your last book Extra-Terrestrials: Friends or Foes you refer to the Russian satellite seeing cities on Mars
Yes, now I really wonder. I haven't seen the photos but I have heard that they have now been released.
That would be sensational!
Yes, l heard of an astronomer who said looking at the photos was like looking at an aerial photo of Los Angeles, because there were straight lines which were emitting heat - how do you have straight lines emitting heat if they're not artificial. And the last photo sent back by the Phoebus-2, was of a narrow cylinder about 28 kilometers long, approaching it and hovering over it that was just before it ceased to function. This was not a trick of light since the shadow was cast on the Martian surface - one can see both the ship and the shadow of the ship in the photo.
Do you think the Americans know more than they are letting on ?
I think the reason that why we haven't been back to the moon is that we are not welcome. And with what happens to our Mars probes, both Russia and the US are getting this same message from Mars
Stay on Earth ?
What do you think of Doris Lessing's book The Sirius Connection ?
I read a book of hers some time ago. Very interesting ideas. I read it more or less as science fiction. Very interesting ideas and I would like to read the rest of her books.
I think she was saying that the human race had been brought here from another planet with a specific purpose - we've been nurtured - and that the people who brought us here are going to come back . . .
That ties in exactly with what I think too.
We also talked earlier about The Tibetan Book of the Dead, and you mentioned Tibetan mystics such as Padma Sambhava, and the idea he had of burying things for future generations to find . . . Tell me more
Padma Sambhava was the root guru who founded Mahayana Buddhism. He was supposedly found in a lotus flower and left Tibet by air. He had all sorts of paranormal abilities. When he first came to Tibet, the king of Tibet received him into his court and he was just like a naked Yogi, and the king said welcome or something - and then he gave an order to the king ! He extended his finger like this and all the clothes of the nobility and all the clothes of the king caught on fire. They were all then rushing around. From then on, he ruled the court. And he said you'll make this temple here and so on. Legend is that he went around Tibet and buried certain things which would, come a time when the fate of humanity would be in balance if the right people found the right things, and it would swing the balance. (5) This ties in with the Arthurian legends and the American Indian legends. I think that those things exist and in our own way we're each trying to dig up some of that lost knowledge out and to activate it. Its just a question of activating a latent potential (see panel).
I saw an article in a Ley line magazine, that showed 30-40 miles of one leyline and on one of the cross roads people had seen UFO's and on another cross road there was a haunted house and there's a link where there are particular spots where you can access other dimensions
Yes, yes in order to access other dimensions. In Missouri, l used to visit the daughter of John Niehard, who wrote Black Elk Speaks. Anyway his daughter lived on a farm that Niehard's wife had chosen clairvoyantly called Sky Rim. During the final years of his life, Niehard got very interested in the paranormal and was holding the equivalent of spiritualist seances in his home where tables would fly and objects would levitate. And since his death his daughter rarely has one of these sessions, but I participated in some of those and there are not only levitation's - but tables shaking and really the whole house started to shake. Niehard built his farm purposely in a place where Ley Lines intercept and there are two main leylines nodal points. One is right in the centre of his work room and the other is in a prayer garden he built around it, and a lot of the paranormal occurrences happen in the vicinity of those two areas only about a couple of hundred feet apart. Typically you start off in the work room, and the table will start to walk out of the door and into the garden and continue to shake outside. I think this is connected in some way to with spirit lodge - Indian's who attended said that the whole teepees would shake and the objects in it would shake and we used to call it the earthquake effect. A friend who was sitting in on a session and had been in a 6 point earthquake said that the tremors were even stronger and lasted longer - she didn't see outside the house, because it was old wooden frame house and it didn't collapse.
When the ancients built their magical sites, they were the sites where the leylines were, where the positive forces meet and where the Christians have tried to build there churches, the places where we can access the other world . . .
Yes, and that's why UFO's come in through them also. I remember right after the experience of my own sighting in Wales in 1972 that got me started in all this, and I met a young couple who as a hobby, went round the stone circles and used to spend the night there. They weren't into UFO's or anything - they just liked to go camping around prehistoric sites. Onetime they arrived there nearly dark, and had to carry their equipment since it was away from the road and it was just about dark and (with an) overcast sky. Directly above the stone circle, and above the cloud layer was something which was shining a bright light directly over the area of the circle. And as they were looking at it, a grapefruit sized globe of light appeared near them and shepherded them in their vicinity until they got back into their car and they drove away and that was the end of it. They didn't think anything about UFO's they just didn't understand what had happened to them.
Have you had any experiences of UFO's ?
Well I still trying to understand what happened during my missing time experience. It was Easter Sunday in 1994 and I had been attending the Ozark UFO conference, it was on April 3rd 1994, and I didn't have a ride home. I live in a barn in a forest several hundred miles away from where the conference was in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. Two friends offered to drive me home. There was an elderly lady who had been an airplane pilot most of her adult life and whose specialty was parachute jumping and who had given this up at the age of 60 to research UFO's was driving, and another friend, a young sociology student was there also. Anyway, I explained the shortest way to get back to my barn, and the lady who was driving said "OK, but its such a beautiful day lets make a detour - have you seen Spook Light Road ?" Now I'd heard about Spook Light Road but I had never been there.
Was this during the day ?
During the day. This was still around noon. We were just leaving the conference. I'm showing her on the map where I live. Now I'd heard about Spook Light Road but I'd never been there. So I said fine, and the other lady said fine too. She'd never been there, although she'd lived in Missouri all her life. Spook Light Road there have been anomalous lights that appear. And before that there are Indian legends about it. Its just a brief stretch of road about 3.5 miles long - that's the entire length of the road and it always seems to occur on that brief stretch of road. Many people claim to have seen those lights and the light has even been said to bounce into windows of cars. No one knows of anyone who has actually been harmed by the light and sometimes there is more than one light. Anyway we decided to go and have a look at that on our way home - and by the time we got there - its Joplin, Missouri - and by the time we finally found Spook Light Road it was still daylight and we thought we're not going to see anything here until after dark, and are we going to hang around here for 2 more hours, discussing whether we were going to stay or continue on . . . we saw a couple of cars parked a bit further down, and we drove down and talked to the people . . .
Were they UFO buffs?
Well actually they had also come from the conference, and had independently had the same idea to check out Spook Light Road. Anyway it was still broad daylight and there was a man who had binoculars and he said "Oh, I see the light". And we could all see it when he pointed it out, without binoculars. There was a light, one could only see it through the trees, there was a forest . . .
Was this light it faint? was it like a searchlight? was it intense ?
No, no, it was quite bright, it was far too large to be a searchlight. Well, of course it was still daylight it was very bright, it was not like an ordinary fire. We could only see it through the trees and it seemed to be at more or less ground level. with somehow an irregular motion to it. Someone suggested that well maybe it was a light on a tractor, but l don't see why a farmer would put a light on a tractor when its still broad daylight but maybe its some sort of agricultural equipment.
How many people were witness to this ?
There were 3 people besides us. There were me and my two companions and there was three other people.
So there were six witnesses basically ?
Three witnesses. They didn't see what happened during the missing time. But anyway the lady I was driving with volunteered to go to the end of the road to see if there was any tractors or agricultural equipment which could explain the light. So we drove off down the road, driving slowly looking both sides of the road, and there were no tractors or agricultural equipment. We got to the end of the road, and turned around and started to drive back. And then as we started to drive back, my friend who was sitting in the back seat said "the light is getting brighter, and its getting closer. . . stop the car, look !" The lady kept driving and I tried to turn around as if I couldn't turn around, and it was as if she said the same thing four or five times, like repetition. Then finally I was able to look around and look out the back window and I saw a light out the back window but it was against a night time sky. The car was dark and we looked at our watches and stuff and we had lost about an hour and twenty minutes. We have been trying to explore it ever since. I have been regressed under hypnosis, but I don't want to talk about it too much until I get it more clearly into focus. I also want to compare it with my companions because on some things we agree and other things we disagree. And it may be that we saw it from different angles or something-unclear, anyway before going public . . . but that's the bare bones of the episode.
So you're going to write about it?
Because the loss of time is another thing isn't it ?
Yes, and this happens very frequently and some of the paranormal stuff working on in Tulsa with my friend Barbara Barthlick. During certain points when we're on to something that seems like really sensitive - all of a sudden I would just sort of fall asleep, and it was as if someone had hit me over the head or something. I would wake up a couple of minutes later, what happened, you know and we'd realise we were talking about something, there was something there.
Would you say that there was a similarity with that experience and the experience people have had with ghosts, when just before you see one there's this other world around you, which you just seem to slip in, so there seems to be a link there ?
Sort of like a between world where one goes temporarily into the after death state but its only temporarily because you come back from it. That's the state where one is able to communicate between dimensions.
What about alien abductions. Do you think there is a lot of truth in what people have been saying over they years and the claims they had made ?
I think most of it is true. I think there are some imitation abductions staged by the government because the government has the technology to do this if it wants to.
Do you think that they are using their own helicopters and aircraft as cover for these ET's to abduct people?
They certainly seem to be coordinated, especially the black helicopters and the UFO's. Whether coordinated because they are working together or because they are working against each other, Its a bit difficult to work out but it looks more like they're working together.
Will the truth will come out?
I think the truth is already on its way out and its too late to stop it. They're is too much evidence surfacing and there are places on the planet where UFO activity is almost permanent. Places like Mexico City, Puerto Rico where sightings are on a daily basis. Belgium for a while. It does seem to me that they can't keep the lid on it much longer.
Thanks to David Somerset, editor of Fiba, for transcribing the tape in 1995.
1 See Conspiracies,
Cover-ups and crimes: From JFK to the CIA Terrorist
Connection. Jonathan Vankin, Dell, NY, USA, 1992. He
describes a "shadow government, the group of ruthless men
who really run the country, and who have been in that
position . . . since the assassination of President Kennedy"